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SSD Failure gives problems with Norton Ghost 15

(56 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by djmr237
  • Latest reply from ispalten
  • Topic Viewed 4616 times

djmr237
Posts: 9

I recently had a complete failure of my OCZ Vertex 60GB SSD.
It was only 6 months old!
When I tried to restore the image of my C Drive to a replacement Crucial M4 SSD, Norton Ghost was unable to succeed.
I tried everything I could think of but to no avail.
Does anybody know why SSDs present a particular problem to Ghost (or any other backup software)?
And has anybody a proven solution?
Regards
David

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

I'm assuming you are using Ghost 15?

Is the new SSD the same size? Did you get an error message or code? Did you format the new drive?

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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djmr237
Posts: 9

Yes it is Ghost 15, and the SSD is the same size.
The error messages initially complained of their being no MBR.
I tried every method I found on the net of solving this but things just got worse.
Eventually It would not even allow me to select a destination for the recovery.

I tried installing a clean Windows 7 on it and then trying again, but I still got error messages.I was trying to restore the main 58Gb image, but had no more success when I tried to restore the 100Mb partition that was described as "system reserved"
David

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

I was able to do it, with some problems, about 9 months ago, see HERE. Funny thing is reading this I'm not sure what I did now?

If you look HERE there could be some help. MBR is mentioned and should have been marked for restore it seems.

The SSD's might not be the same size though? It is the partition size that counts? I have a 115GB Corsair, but the partition size is only 107.13GB's. Should be more if you use the 1.024 divisor to get to real GB's. Each SSD might have different 'spare' space include in the size specifications. However, as long as the used space is below it, it should work?

Here is an alternate way of doing it, http://thessdreview.com/Forums.....t/1702.htm, and I know at one point I was going to try something else. There is also a program from PARAGON and for $20 I was within an inch of buying, until I discovered the disk ID problem.

Let me know if these help you are not?

Like I said, I did it, it wasn't easy, and it took some searching, but in time I've forgotten the full steps I took.

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

Might want to CHECK THIS OUT, especially if your computer is a DELL (mine is) and it could be the cause of the problem. Looonnnngggg thread, but the answer is on page 12.

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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whs
Posts: 17584

I don't think that there is anything special in restoring images to SSDs. I do that all the time (OCZ Vertex, Crucial M4, Intel). I do, however, use free Macrium and not Ghost. I had Ghost 14 for Vista where I also restored to SSDs (with great difficulty if I remember right), but Macrium is so much better and does not cost anything that I decided to switch.

Have a look whether the Ghost image is a VHD and can be mounted (I do not quite remember how the Ghost image file looks). If it is a mountable VHD, I would have an idea on how to get it to the SSD.

Too bad you kept the 100MB partition and did not move the bootmgr from there to the C partition. That 100MB partition is going to complicate our life a bit.

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

WHS, read my links... DELL seems to do it differently with respect to the MBR? Reason didn't make sense to me though, has to do with a 4th partition, but they only had 3 on the drive? At least on my VISTA they did, a 71NB 'unallocated' one that I'm sure they use for their utilities (marked with a FS unknown to Windows), the C: and the D: recovery. Maybe for W7 they added the 100MB one? My C: SSD is the only partition on the SDD, no 100MB W7 one.

Not even SURE why I'm keeping the 15GB D: drive around. Seriously doubt I'll ever restore the system from that (do have a Ghost image) but the space is so small I'm not going to bother with it. I don't even know if I can boot to it or the Utility partition that is now on the other drive, not the boot one? If I should need to boot to the utilities can move the boot drive to that one that has it though.

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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raphoenix
Posts: 14920

The PROPER procedure is to do a Secure Erase, "null out", the the SSD to bring it back to Factory Specifications BEFORE restoring the backup image.

What you did was "over fill" the the container before trim could take effect.

Using HDD4ERASE to Secure Erase the SSD requires "Hot Plugging" the SSD during the procedure to overcome the "Frozen Bios Lock" condition so is a bit hard to explain in short tutorials.

BOTH SSDs can be easily fixed. :) :)

http://cmrr.ucsd.edu/people/Hu.....rase.shtml

Rick P.

Posted 2 years ago
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germ-x
Posts: 5310

@Rick,
Your saying one requires a "Hot Plugging" and a secure erase everytime you want to recover your "C" drive from a stored image? Seems like a lot of work for recovering an image.

Tom

Posted 2 years ago
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raphoenix
Posts: 14920

Notice I said PROPER way.

With an SSD, the drive is already filled with one system so the image is placed in the un-filled space on the drive because the drive does not know that the filled space is not needed any more.

For the drive to know that the old filled space (old System) can be reused again, the old space must freed up by erasing (trimming) it so the restored image can be written to the old space.

An SSD has no way of knowing your intentions so until you erase or delete something, it assumes all memory that has been written to should not be written over until you erase (delete) it so trim can take place and then it knows that space is available again.

Analogy: Quickly dumping (1) pound bag of stuff into a filled (1) pound bag without emptying the bag first. (LOL)

Rick P.

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

Rick, Ghost doesn't work that way, that is copy raw files (and if it did, it would be using the same names if you replaced an image on top of another). Any disk would be as you say, and then you could not replace and image, SSD or not. I am pretty sure ALL image restore programs (not file back up programs) work by either 'formatting' first or doing a sector write which gets translated by the SSD into memory writes.

Using your analogy and you imply a DELETE doesn't happen (and it doesn't on FAT or NTFS FS's) until TRIM is run on an SSD, you'd fill an SSD up if you copy large files before a TRIM occurs. I don't think so.

Check on how an IMAGE restore program, I am quite sure none work by files but raw disk writes by sector.

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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Lighthouse
Posts: 13598

Knowing Norton products for a long time, my guess would be raw disk copies.

Posted 2 years ago
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raphoenix
Posts: 14920

@IRV,

I know how SSD, Ghost, NTFS, Fat and Trim works.

I need NO advice from you OR others on the the subject.

Thanks for sharing,

Rick P.

Posted 2 years ago
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Xhi
Posts: 6298

Now, now, boys, play nice or go to your rooms without the Internet.

Posted 2 years ago
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whs
Posts: 17584

Irv, in regard to your above post.

The thing that Dell does differently is that they put the bootmgr into the recovery partition. That is why I first move that bootmgr to C before I image. Have done that like that on both my Dell desktops without any problem.

Posted 2 years ago
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djmr237
Posts: 9

Thanks for all the input, guys.
My PC is a Dell, although only the motherboard is left of the original 530S

I am assuming that this 100Mb chunk that Ghost has been saving as well as the 58Gb C image, is in fact some Dell specific area that Dell use to recover windows.

My basic assumption is that if Windows 7 can find the new SSD, format it in whatever way it requires, and install a working OS on it, then Ghost should have been able to do much the same with whatever it had been backing up for me for the last 6 months.

I had also tried installing Ubuntu onto my new M4 SSD and despite the fact that this has worked fine with 2 other PCs (non-Dell), the SSD caused Ubuntu to fail, with reams of error messages saying disk sectors were unavailable.
[ and yet it was fine as far as Windows 7 was concerned which installed faultlessly]

The only thing different was the fact that I had let Ghost do its thing and restore my 58Gb image..
I am wondering why, if ghost thought it had saved all the information it needed to restore the image, that it failed to find a MBR after the successful (as reported by Ghost)image restore.
The fact that it did it initially and then subsequently refused to even let me specify the M4 SSD as a destination for a restore,shows that something about how the SSD presented itself had changed.
And it must have changed in such a way as to prevent
a) Ubuntu from installing,and
b) Ghost from doing a 2nd recovery.

I can't help feeling this is something Dell specific.

The trouble is that as I needed the PC working, I have by now re-installed most of my software.
A combination of using Dropbox to store a lot of data, and having relocated all the usual My Music, My Pictures etc. onto my 1TB D: Drive meant that this has been quicker than if everything had been stored on C:

I am loathe to try and have another go at restoring my saved images in case it still doesn't work and I will have lost where I am now.

I just need to know what to change before I start a new backup regime so I avoid this problem in future.

I could give Ghost the boot (pun intended)
I could investigate macrium as suggested above.
I could get rid of the "system reserved" partition (if I knew the correct way to do this)
I could get rid of the last bit of Dell and buy a new Motherboard.
The advice I get on here will help me decide.
I will now go away and follow up each of the links quoted above by members and see if these throw any light on the problem.

David

Posted 2 years ago
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Lighthouse
Posts: 13598

Just to complicate things,
http://www.mydigitallife.info/.....windows-7/

Posted 2 years ago
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ispalten
Posts: 6259

I think the problem is either you didn't tell Ghost to restore the MBR or the MBR is pointing off to a different partition? Read the links I posted, since you now confirm it was a Dell, that sort of helps in that the old Dell setup of the drives could be a problem.

Irv S.

Posted 2 years ago
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djmr237
Posts: 9

What I plan to do is buy another M4 64GB SSD
REstore the C: Drive 58Gb image.
Restore the 100Mb System Reserved.
Copy the MBR from the 100Mb to the C Drive using Bootit BM.
Then try a reboot and hope it all goes OK
Thanks for all your suggestions and links, everybody.
It gave me a lot of reading, most of which I understood.
It seems that before using Ghost to backup in future I need to get rid of the system reserved after having grabbed the MBR from it.
I'll report back how I got on.
David

Posted 2 years ago
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djmr237
Posts: 9

Sorry, I meant I will use BCDedit to move Bootmgr to the C Drive
David

Posted 2 years ago
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